Rigour, Standards & Truth Over Harmony: Rob Campbell on What Actually Sets Creative Work Apart

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[00:40] Rob Campbell: Hello, it's lovely to see you again. It's been a while.

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[00:52] Rob Campbell: Well, I mean, that's always a hard question to answer because one, it reflects like a sense of egotistical knowledge that I don't think I have, and personal context. So I was thinking about this and that while it's definitely not something that is unique as a conversational point, I just thought it was good to finally hear this narrative being coming to the fore. And it was kind of the acknowledgment now with all the noise of AI that actually the worry isn't that AI is going to take over the world, but it's going to allow companies to destroy the world. I think it was the JP Morgan Chase CEO who basically admitted, not using those exact words, that in the quest to push for more profits and productivity, they're going to put society into a dangerous place if they keep replacing people. And while there'll be efficiencies of course, there's a sense of if we follow through to the end game, then you know, there's a real danger for what society is. And to be quite honest, I've thought about this for ages because I'm like going, if there's no jobs, who are companies going to sell stuff to? You know, and if they're using AI for everything, how are they going to build value and differentiation? And I'm not anti-AI, I think AI is an amazing thing. I'm anti the narrow-cast view that it's just an efficiency tool. And that's why I think when I look at how companies are using it, and that's why I found the JP Morgan Chase CEO's comments so interesting. I think that rather than AI creating value for companies, it actually reveals what companies actually value. I think it's almost like the ultimate truth serum. So while that's not something that's you know, new and or a topic people haven't heard about, it's just the final acknowledgment that there are real implications of this. There was also an investment guy who said that you know, AI and a lot of the people behind it have to promote it as the ultimate thing because they need so much money that if they show any sense of weakness it might put people off. They were almost implying that the potential of AI being sold by a lot of people is almost a Ponzi scheme in its quest to get cash. Whether that's true or not, I don't know, but I just find it interesting that finally there are some ulterior narratives. Not because again, I think AI is the problem, I think it's the people behind AI. And we've just got to have those conversations because if we just go running straight ahead going this is mass profit and efficiency, it might be too late before we see the implications. Not just for society, but for the companies that are embracing it for their profitability. So that was something that I found really interesting.

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[04:41] Rob Campbell: Yeah, I mean, it's just like, you know, I was talking about my son, he has something called dysgraphia and a bunch of other things, and I love technology, I've always loved technology. And if I don't know if you know dysgraphia, but dysgraphia ultimately impacts how my son learns versus how much he can learn, but one of those things that it impacts is his ability to write. But with AI, should he want to ever become a writer, suddenly it could enable him to do it. So I think it's amazing. My problem with the way that a lot of companies are looking at the use of that technology is that they're literally seeing it as an efficiency tool, not a liberator of potential. And so the first victims are always employees, which, you know, I heard somebody refer to them as a human tax in companies, which terrifies me. But yeah, I mean technology is great. I mean, I don't think it's just the tech bros. I've had well, I did some work with a couple, of which I chose not to continue because I just felt that their reasons for embarking on this outside of the PR was far more about power and control than it was about enablement and betterment. But yeah, it's going to be an interesting aspect, but as I said, I just like the fact that there's other conversations finally equalizing the noise of the billionaires. Not to bring it all down, but just to help people understand the implications and the choices that have to be made because if we leave it too long, uh, it'll be just too late and I'd rather have the discussions up front rather than try and chase something that's already gone.

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[06:44] Rob Campbell: Can I just say one thing on that because it's fascinating you say that and a client of mine said it and I was like, yeah, you're absolutely right. Um, my son's ability to do speech-to-text and get it right first time is unbelievable. Like if I try and send a voice note, I um, I ah, I make mistakes, like I'm not used to that as an input device. Um, even though obviously I grew up talking on the phone. But their ability to be very clear, very precise, first time, is unbelievable and that's when I started realizing really how technology and generational change really come together in unique ways. So yeah, we should do it, but yeah, that was a really interesting revelation for me of just going, he gets it right every time and it's clear and precise and I bumble, what the f*ck am I doing?

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[08:18] Rob Campbell: Yeah. I mean, I work with an incredible array of clients covering an incredible array of categories. Um, and I love it. I love that uh, they ask questions that to them are normal that I've never heard before or considerations. Um, and to be, I'm 55 and to be in a situation where I still get to be at the forefront of creating creativity, and I use creativity more than advertising because a lot of the people I'm working for, not only love creativity, but their business is the creativity. Their artistry is the creativity. Um, I love it and it helps change the way that I look at things and approach things. Um, and that's why I've always loved living around the world as well because you realize that what you know isn't what everyone knows and it's quite a humbling experience to know that you've lived in a bubble and you better get your sh*t together. Um, and you know, to your point about process, I mean people often ask what's my process. Um, I'm not a big believer in things like frameworks. My process is probably paranoia, curiosity, standards, rigor, originality, and just fear. You know, that's basically how it works. And how I execute that, and I think that's why I've got to work with such a range of clients from musicians to street culture designers to, you know, sports brands is because I'm always interested in what they're interested in. Um, I have a point of view, but my starting point is being interested in what they're interested in and then spending time with people around those categories who are part of the culture of those categories and just trying to understand them versus get answers for them. So, yeah, my whole approach has always been, yeah, be interested in what they're interested in and listen to the people where it's their oxygen versus just their general interest. And from that, um, interesting things appear for me or interesting opportunities. Um, but yeah, I work with a whole range of people from, you know, helping design... well, one thing I was asked not that long ago was help design a world tour stage set and I've never done anything like that and they put me together with other people. Um, and I feel a bit of a fraud in doing that, but they value the fact that I'm really good at translating what they're trying to say in a way that they go, yeah, that's it. Um, and I'm very good at understanding how they really look at the world and tick so I can make sure things represent who they actually are versus what's convenient to what they could get. And that's why I'm really good for some clients and absolutely terrible for others. Um, and I've learned that the hard way. Uh, but yeah, it's, there's a, my portfolio of work basically all falls into a certain sort of characteristic because it represents what I believe, um, versus just the academic approach to how you should do things in a vacuum.

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[11:37] Rob Campbell: Well, first of all, I don't think... I'm bound to say this, I'm not an ideas megalomaniac. When I say it's my way, it is my way, but it's my values versus my approach. Like, my values are standards and rigor and honesty and transparency. And so, I believe tough love is, you know, is still love. And, but I want to, I want to help the people I work with be better than they ever thought they could be. Like that, that's what it is. And I'm happy to have those conversations because I don't just want them to win, I want them to win better. And I have no problems in having those conversations. Not because I'm a megalomaniac or want to be controversial. I want them to be great. Um, and hopefully with the, I certainly know that, well I did say this to my friends recently, I mean last year I realized I am a nightmare to work with. Um, and I said that to them and they looked at me in shock like, "Have you only just worked that out?" I went, "Yeah, I've only just worked that out." Um, because I'm, I'm impatient, I'm never really satisfied. Um, I'm hungry to always find an original way to deal with often old situational problems. Um, but I want everyone to win better, including my team. I want them to be epic. Um, and that's not about, well I mean, effort, you've got to put in the effort, but it's more about just dedication. Like failing is fine if you're trying to do something for the right reasons. The only thing I really hate is laziness. Um, and laziness in terms of thinking or a lack of point of view versus hours. I don't want people to work kill themselves with the hours they work, I mean I've made that mistake and it's, you know, I look at younger generations going, "God, you got it so much right." Um, but yeah, I'm not going to, I'm not going to say, well this is the process and not put a layer of standards, rigor, or originality over it, otherwise why the fck would they pay me? If they want something like that, go to an AI bot, it'll do it more successfully. Um, and I think with the artists I work with, or actually that's not true, with pretty much anyone I've worked with, there is a goal where they want to, they want to be true about who they are, but do something in a way that really fcking matters with creativity as a, as a means to achieve things that maybe pure logic couldn't get to. And um, yeah, and I'm committed to that. So if I'm a nightmare, then hopefully I'm a good, a good one. I'm a complete... terrible because I'm still working and still have people want me. But I definitely know I am terrible for some people, 100%.

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[14:24] Rob Campbell: Ah no, you can call me a megalomaniac... but the only reason I react to that, I mean apart from who wants to be called that, um, I'm often, I used to get called, "Oh, you're trying to be controversial." I'm going, I'm not trying to be controversial. I said, I'm not saying it to be controversial, that would be just arguing for the sake of it. I'm saying it because I believe there's a perspective that I'd like to discuss and if I'm wrong, that's cool, but by not talking about it, I think that's wrong. Um, and that comes from, you know, my father was a human rights barrister, my mum who was Italian, her family always against the mafia. It's like let's talk truth to power sort of thing, but always with the goal of wanting them to win better versus to put them down. But in doing that, um, honesty and transparency are attributes that are really important. And that's why, Ange, she always talks about truth over harmony. And I think that's really good because right now we live in a state of illusionary harmony, and look where we're getting. Um, but if you're all committed to trying to do the thing for the right reasons, then truth is an aid to get to a better place versus to take it as a personal attack. It's never a personal attack.

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[16:15] Rob Campbell: Well, I mean, it's quite interesting that the word "sprint" has become the normality now. And I get, you know, speed can be a competitive advantage, but it can also be a complete competitive disadvantage. Like one of the things I really value is going into the vaults of why an organization started. Like really understand it. So, because if you just look at where the data is suggesting where they are now, then you're reacting to a perceived value versus the truth of who they are. And so yeah, that's where rigor is really important to me. Like rigor and standards, at the end of the day, that's the only thing you've got that will set you apart. And so yeah, it's... I find it really hard when people say we've got to do this really quickly and you go, "Why?" Um, and if it does have to be quick, let's be honest about it. But that's why transparency is really important. And I think quite often we've cultivated this thing of us versus them and it's like, what's the point? That's why I love working with founders and artists, because I know it's them. They are the creativity. And so I can ask them questions about who they are and what they think, and they go, they're fine with answering it. Um, they're fine with acknowledging their hypocrisy or their changes, um, because for me, the more I know, the more I can do stuff that really reflects what makes them unique versus falling into the trap of some framework which often is the articulation of truth in the most diluted or convenient way that ultimately ends up sounding and looking exactly like everyone else. And um, that's, that's just not where I think real value is built. You can get short-term value in that, but real sustainable long-term value? No, I don't believe that. I believe you've got to, you've got to get to the heart.

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[18:20] Rob Campbell: Paula Bloodworth for me. I mean, there's lots of people. Um, I love Paula Bloodworth. I worked with her at Wieden+Kennedy. We talk all the time even though we don't work together. Um, she has a company with Idris Elba. Um, she, she has an incredible, I just think she has an incredible brain in the way she looks at the world. She's so smart and inherently creative. Um, and I, there's many people in my life that I've worked with who I've clicked in well, but no one as well as her. And quite often we start from quite not opposing sides but different perspectives, but we have an ability to make, well she certainly has an ability to make me better. Um, so yeah, for her, I really value everything that she does and how she looks at stuff. And I think that she, um, she doesn't like attention but she deserves a lot more than she has. She's a real inspiration for me.

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[19:18] Rob Campbell: She did, she was part of that, yeah. She was part of that as well. Yeah.

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[19:26] Rob Campbell: God. Um, not, not becoming a lawyer. I really wanted to be a lawyer like my parents and that would have been a disaster. Um, I honestly think it's probably, uh, constantly moving overseas. Um, everything except for one friendship in the UK I owe because I've just kept moving. Um, it's given me more knowledge, experience, and life than I probably ever could have imagined. Um, and I think, yeah, I think the ability to not be so focused on what I would leave behind meant that I was able to see everything that I could gain from doing it and I keep doing it. I've lived in lots and lots of countries. Um, my wife has been unbelievably, um, she has facilitated and enabled that a lot because, you know, it's easier said than done. But um, while she keeps saying she's got one big move left in her and I say well I've got a lot, which is an ongoing discussion, I think that if I look at the life that I have and the life that I could have had if I'd stayed in England... not because England's bad, but I think um, you can fall into, when you grow up in your place, it's dead easy to settle into what you think the expectations are. Um, but if I look at where I'm at now and what I've still got ahead of me, or what I want to have ahead of me, um, 99% of that is because I've been able to keep moving overseas. So I'd say that's the best decision. And having parents that encouraged that at a time where my father fell ill six weeks before I was going to move overseas for the first time and they still encouraged me. Um, I learned what true love meant in that situation. And in some respects that's why I keep moving because I feel the greatest way to honor my parents, who have both passed away now, is to keep doing what they encouraged me to do. Um, because it changed my life in literally every way possible.

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[21:35] Rob Campbell: I mean there's, yeah, there's loads. I mean, there's loads. From being, when my band was signed to a record company and we f*cked it up of our own making, that was a big... I mean, I was, depression didn't exist, it was that long ago, but I was definitely depressed for a year. I mean it was, it was devastating. Um, but probably if it's a more realistic aspect, it's a couple of people that I've put my faith and energy into over the years. You know, given my age and how many times that's happened, it's like I've not, I've not done too bad. I mean generally it's been amazing. But there's been a couple of people where, uh, I was misplaced in the faith that I put in them. That said, it's probably not their fault, it's mine. Um, one for not listening to my gut because there was definitely something that was going on. But I think also the other part of it was I probably wasn't dealing with the issues I had going on in my head at that time, which probably enabled them to take advantage of that. Um, but it's a good learning and an old boss of mine once said that anger is my energy and they were pretty accurate in that and I think um, that anger has given me a bunch of energy that I've still got to use and use up. So uh, yeah, probably a couple of people where yeah, I was misplaced in the faith I put in them mainly because I kind of suspected that but I didn't listen to myself.

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[23:14] Rob Campbell: I mean the funniest moments... look there's loads that I can't put up because I've probably signed the Official Secrets Act to the people involved. Um, but one of the most funny, is it funny or is it utterly stupid? Um, my best friend and I many, many years ago were on a holiday and it was Remembrance Sunday. And for some weird reason we decided to go to a church service to honor it. And neither of us are religious, I don't know, I don't know what we were doing. Um, and we were in Bristol or Bath or something. And we went to this church, we were the youngest people in there by about 90 years I would say. And we walked in and there were photographs of people who had obviously been soldiers or from the parish and there was a visitors book which we signed and we sat down. And then we listened to this service thinking that we were being good. And then my friend turned to me and goes, "We're going to hell." And I'm like, "Why?" And I realized why he said that because the priest had started reading names of the people from the parish who had died in the First and Second World War, but he was reading it from what we thought was the visitors book and we'd signed it. Um, now I can laugh at it, but at the time I felt, I felt, "Oh my God." I mean it was a bit similar to when my mum died. I was devastated and I looked on her iPad for the most played songs that she had because as part of the service. And I found an acoustic version for when we walked in. I didn't know, I hadn't listened to it, I was too emotionally distraught. But when the service ended, this song came on with lyrics called Jar of Hearts. And it's basically the lyrics are something like, "Who do you think you are, you have a jar of hearts, destroying people's lives with your love." And I'm like going, "What the..." And I just, my wife and I just looked at each other like going, luckily I know my mum would have found that very funny. But my best friend's then-wife just came up to us afterwards and just goes, "That ending song..." I went, "Don't ask, don't ask." But yeah, I think the funniest moments are yeah, spontaneous stupidity, that's probably the mark of me. Um, that's where I get my humor from.

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[25:40] Rob Campbell: Well, I mean, I would say Paula, who I'd mentioned earlier. Um, whether she would do it, I don't know because Paula is not that person. So either yeah, Paula, who I think, you know, I've said is an incredible human being. Um, but there's someone else called Maya Thompson. Uh, she's in LA. We worked together when I lived there. Um, Maya, Chelsea, and Bree are three African American women who changed my life. Um, and... yeah, I mean they're all important, but Maya and I have a special connection. Uh, the way that her honesty, her fierceness, her truth, her intelligence and passion. She is amazing. She will make people feel awkward and empowered for all the right reasons in all the right ways. Um, so Paula or Maya, I would say. Um, because they are... hey, the world's pretty f*cked at this moment and those two people for me are making sure that we're not completely in the red zone. So those two.

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[26:54] Rob Campbell: Pleasure, thank you so much for having me. I really am grateful to you and it's lovely to see you.

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